The meeting you and others had with Rhatigan went against the Club, believed every word he said and promised and did nothing for the Community club's views or stance.
Hello Neil where have you gone!!!
Please come back and explain your post above and enlighten me!
The meeting the 4 of us arranged with Rhatigan at the Camrose was nothing to do with the CC. The protests at the Camrose we organised were also nothing to do with the club, we did it ourselves to highlight the Camrose problem and keep it in the public domain. It was good to see club officials attended both those protests!
So Neil,
1. What was it that you think Rhatigan promised the 4 of us at our meeting with him on Wednesday 24/02/21 has he has done nothing for the CC views or stance?
2. What is it you think we believed.
Come on chap your brave enough to post what you have, so let’s have some back up facts to your post so we can have the opportunity to answer them.
Remember I was only one of 4 people with Rhatigan that day and I know there were no others present on the day. So unless you were the invisible man that day stood by us listening in you cannot possible know what went on or what was said other than the bit I told yesterday in my post on here!!
If you have got confused with something else then fine but you really need to explain what on earth your post means.
RIP CAMROSE - SADLY AND UNCEREMONIOUSLY TAKEN AWAY FROM THE PEOPLE OF BASINGSTOKE . NEVER TO BE FORGOTTEN
Prejudice is a great TIME SAVER. You can form opinions without having to get to the FACTS.
Steve, unfortunately i was at work yesterday afternoon/evening, and then have to admit that your initial reply got lost in your tit for tats posts with Matt Warmington. To answer your questions, your meeting may have been between your group and Rhatigan, someone that you seem to place great trust in. This meeting I understand from the then chairman Kevin White did not sit well with the board and to him was a clear intervention, possibly with some good intentions, possibly not, allowed Rhatigan from the known meetings with him in January to cast doubt in the board plans to return to the Camrose. It is a fact that Rhatigan pushed for us to move the club miles out of town to South Manydown, and the differing views that the club and your group with the way forward, allowed him to put questions to the board that became unhelpful again according to Mr White. Looking at one of your latest submissions, it will be interesting to see what you present at next weeks inquiry, but would take very little belief in either Rhatigan or our local MP, who has done next to nothing in support of it's towns principle football club.
Steve, unfortunately i was at work yesterday afternoon/evening, and then have to admit that your initial reply got lost in your tit for tats posts with Matt Warmington. To answer your questions, your meeting may have been between your group and Rhatigan, someone that you seem to place great trust in. This meeting I understand from the then chairman Kevin White did not sit well with the board and to him was a clear intervention, possibly with some good intentions, possibly not, allowed Rhatigan from the known meetings with him in January to cast doubt in the board plans to return to the Camrose. It is a fact that Rhatigan pushed for us to move the club miles out of town to South Manydown, and the differing views that the club and your group with the way forward, allowed him to put questions to the board that became unhelpful again according to Mr White. Looking at one of your latest submissions, it will be interesting to see what you present at next weeks inquiry, but would take very little belief in either Rhatigan or our local MP, who has done next to nothing in support of it's towns principle football club.
As far as I’m concerned I’ve had no tit for tat posts with Matt. Matt’s a decent bloke and we express both what we know and have been told so no need for that terminology from you on that.
You have still not answered my questions put to you. You clearly have no idea at all what went on at that meeting, so to assume Rhatagan promised us anything was grossly incorrect on your part because he didn’t promise anything! So where on earth did you get he promised us this or that from eh? To be clear any councillors we have spoken to have not promised us or the club anything!!
As for trusting Rhatigan, that’s another assumption by you that you have got 100% incorrect (oh dear your not having a good time of this are you). Where on earth do you get me trusting Rhatigan from!! Personally I do not trust any of them. What I will do is have a conversation with them and if need to quote what they say to me or us as a group!
To advise you, Kevin White did not do himself any favours with me when I tried to go through him to get a club sponsor on board. In fact at the time the CC did not have one sponsor!! In the end I dealt with Steve Williams and Terry Brown cause Kevin could not be bothered. It’s pleasing to note that the club sponsor is still involved today. In fact I took that perspective sponsor to meet Terry Brown at the Apollo Hotel on a Monday morning 2 days before covid set in. We spent 4 Hours that day talking and included a look around the Winklebury stadium as the perspective sponsor had not seen it.
As for that meeting with Rhatigan on the date given I spoke to two CC board members at that time before the meeting, neither of them said don’t do it or we advise you not too, or the club are not happy!!, yes they said be careful but the 4 of us with our experience were not going to be anything else but careful. I did not speak with White at the time over the matter, as far as I was concerned he was a complete waste of time and very nearly cost the club he was meant to be running a sponsor when they did not have one! (Oh and by the way I still have the text messages from White on that). I also reported back to those two members on how the meeting went.
What we present next week is similar to what the CC have put forward. Like I said yesterday I have helped the CC with some stats and other bits which I have been thanked for and told that the CC’s barrister is very grateful for.
I wish people who post would carry out due diligence and do some research first because in this case Neil you are very wide of the mark. As a school report would say ‘must try harder’
Post by mattwarmington on Mar 18, 2022 10:53:10 GMT
As someone else said, I think we are all on the same side next week. The approaches have been different and caused a lot of anger and suspicion. I will always be firmly in the camp that the Community Club was right to ensure the club survived before tackling the Camrose issue. Basron banked on the club going bust and them rolling through the Camrose very quickly and they failed because the club was able to fight its corner. Then came the petty trashing of the pitch. This came against posts saying, take relegation to the Hampshire League or form a Phoenix Club. The club would have gone bust at Winchester, we had to come back to the town and this has been proven to be the right move, attendances are up and we've been able to build a really good team. I've already said I hate Winklebury, and I do, but at least we're not paying for Winchester City's ambitions anymore.
Even if we win next week there will be further battles to come, Basron will still own the land and, assuming the ACV holds up, there may well come a time where we have six months to put together a bid to buy back the Camrose. There will be no time for infighting then.
As someone else said, I think we are all on the same side next week. The approaches have been different and caused a lot of anger and suspicion. I will always be firmly in the camp that the Community Club was right to ensure the club survived before tackling the Camrose issue. Basron banked on the club going bust and them rolling through the Camrose very quickly and they failed because the club was able to fight its corner. Then came the petty trashing of the pitch. This came against posts saying, take relegation to the Hampshire League or form a Phoenix Club. The club would have gone bust at Winchester, we had to come back to the town and this has been proven to be the right move, attendances are up and we've been able to build a really good team. I've already said I hate Winklebury, and I do, but at least we're not paying for Winchester City's ambitions anymore.
Even if we win next week there will be further battles to come, Basron will still own the land and, assuming the ACV holds up, there may well come a time where we have six months to put together a bid to buy back the Camrose. There will be no time for infighting then.
Spot on Matt
Like Matt, I also firmly believe the club were right to ensure the club survived first, just had to be the way. However, I can also see and get why others thought differently. For me the biggest thing in all of this was the finding of the Covenant. Understanding legal matters is complicated. The Camrose Covenant comes in that category. I stood up at a meeting in the Camrose Clubhouse and said that ‘Unless the Covenant was found nothing could be done’. Thankfully the finding of that covenant I think a year later put a complete change on the matter because despite Razzak officially owner the land the ground sits on (well most of it), it could now be proved it existed and should have been respected. Remember the council here said it was lost as well and it came back, came back to haunt a few people. I do believe that finding it has also had the right effect on the council. I’m sure without it they would not have placed an ACV on the Camrose and I don’t think their original decision on turning the planning down by 11 votes to a nice big fat zero would have been so high. Now I feel they have egg on their faces and are looking at it differently from the beginning. As Matt and others have said,
we need next week to go in the clubs favour, fingers crossed and if there is a god up there it happens.
RIP CAMROSE - SADLY AND UNCEREMONIOUSLY TAKEN AWAY FROM THE PEOPLE OF BASINGSTOKE . NEVER TO BE FORGOTTEN
Prejudice is a great TIME SAVER. You can form opinions without having to get to the FACTS.
If we win next the court case next week, this is just the first step of returning to the Camrose. The council have to defend their decision last year, with the support of the club, and lets hope they do. Getting the Camrose off Razzak would be the next step.
Now apparently no one is allowed to attend the four day meetings in person only through an online link
Correct Micky, email came through late this afternoon confirming this.
Part of the email says - Anyone wishing to take part in the inquiry virtually contact the Local Planning Authority email: Appeal@basingstoke.gov.U.K. or telephone 01256 845765
RIP CAMROSE - SADLY AND UNCEREMONIOUSLY TAKEN AWAY FROM THE PEOPLE OF BASINGSTOKE . NEVER TO BE FORGOTTEN
Prejudice is a great TIME SAVER. You can form opinions without having to get to the FACTS.
I think we need to clarify that "No to Winklebury" came about because Winklebury was originally announced by those in charge of the new community set up as the NEW HOME of Basingstoke Town, not the temporary solution that eventually became the mantra when the reality of its limitations finally sank in.
Those of us speaking at meetings and attending protests had already been trying to save the Camrose but we were constantly being told by officials and fans alike that the Camrose was dead and Winklebury was the way forward. Winklebury could host Conference South football, we were all against the club, and we were all wasting our time.
To answer Stocky's question, David Graham has been at the heart of the Save the Camrose campaign from the very beginning, contacting councillors, the MP, the footballing authorities and BDBC officers. He worked on KFIB, attended the business expo at the Apollo where he was threatened by one of Mr Razzak's henchmen, and has written a book. He was at one time involved at the club, and has been a supporter for many years, sponsoring games and promoting the club wherever possible, and along with others who are also now "outsiders" has suffered a great deal of abuse for his trouble.
If you scroll on past David, Jack, myself and Martin in that meeting you will come to the club officials of the day, those who David quite rightly pointed out were mainly put in place by Mr Razzak and were not fit for purpose, and the complete fiasco of how the HFA were ambushed and Winklebury came about.
Just a few extra seats and some terracing was how it was sold by David Knight, and it would replace the Camrose. And it could all be done in six to eight weeks.
I think you will find Matt, that the Sport England position was guided by the council and club position at the time, with Winklebury being the permanent solution, which has now changed. Their concern with the club's agreed move would have been s106 contributions for the loss of the grass pitch and astro courts, rather than a replacement stadium.
Five years on and Colin Stoker has put forward a very good submission to the appeal and we hope the non btcfc submissions can continue to assist the club cause and get the Camrose back.
On a personal note, I was a supporter of the idea of an AFC, as this would have been an immediate break from Mr Razzak and a real fresh start, from where we could still keep the history but build on anew.
But that was not to be and the Community Club took over at Winchester. I then felt there would have been more leverage in remaining out of town, as coming back to a not adequate ground would lead to BDBC saying that the club was where it wanted to be, they had done their bit and that would be that.
Lets all hope for a positive result next week
Great response as always David. Lots of Clear and precise information. But please can you name the club officials that helped and allowed Razzak to evict the club from the Camrose. A lot of the new/younger club supporters will not know who they are. Some of the responsibility must be accounted for.
That is helpful, Dave. You know who I am and of course you helped the disability team as a while at Treasurer. I have read everything on here and it appears that alongside the club, of which I am a member, there is another seemingly highly active and organised grouping of which I was not aware which will also be making submissions. So much the better. It is worth stating that at the AGM, Colin stated that the Community Club have secured the services of a barrister who is being paid for from from donations. It all went wrong when Rafi misunderstood local government and thought that council officials could make decisions about allocations of sites for new grounds. The rest is history. If you asked for my wish to go back in time, it would be as a fly on the wall at a Board meeting where directors agreed to the sale of the ground to Basron. How did it happen? One final note of puzzlement for me. Those who have genuine criticisms of past community club stances and expressions of view and in particular disapproval of people who are still involved in the community club and who don't attend games. Is it not possible they could separate 'team' from 'club' and actually support the team by cheering them on at games?
I think we need to clarify that "No to Winklebury" came about because Winklebury was originally announced by those in charge of the new community set up as the NEW HOME of Basingstoke Town, not the temporary solution that eventually became the mantra when the reality of its limitations finally sank in.
Those of us speaking at meetings and attending protests had already been trying to save the Camrose but we were constantly being told by officials and fans alike that the Camrose was dead and Winklebury was the way forward. Winklebury could host Conference South football, we were all against the club, and we were all wasting our time.
To answer Stocky's question, David Graham has been at the heart of the Save the Camrose campaign from the very beginning, contacting councillors, the MP, the footballing authorities and BDBC officers. He worked on KFIB, attended the business expo at the Apollo where he was threatened by one of Mr Razzak's henchmen, and has written a book. He was at one time involved at the club, and has been a supporter for many years, sponsoring games and promoting the club wherever possible, and along with others who are also now "outsiders" has suffered a great deal of abuse for his trouble.
If you scroll on past David, Jack, myself and Martin in that meeting you will come to the club officials of the day, those who David quite rightly pointed out were mainly put in place by Mr Razzak and were not fit for purpose, and the complete fiasco of how the HFA were ambushed and Winklebury came about.
Just a few extra seats and some terracing was how it was sold by David Knight, and it would replace the Camrose. And it could all be done in six to eight weeks.
I think you will find Matt, that the Sport England position was guided by the council and club position at the time, with Winklebury being the permanent solution, which has now changed. Their concern with the club's agreed move would have been s106 contributions for the loss of the grass pitch and astro courts, rather than a replacement stadium.
Five years on and Colin Stoker has put forward a very good submission to the appeal and we hope the non btcfc submissions can continue to assist the club cause and get the Camrose back.
On a personal note, I was a supporter of the idea of an AFC, as this would have been an immediate break from Mr Razzak and a real fresh start, from where we could still keep the history but build on anew.
But that was not to be and the Community Club took over at Winchester. I then felt there would have been more leverage in remaining out of town, as coming back to a not adequate ground would lead to BDBC saying that the club was where it wanted to be, they had done their bit and that would be that.
Lets all hope for a positive result next week
Great response as always David. Lots of Clear and precise information. But please can you name the club officials that helped and allowed Razzak to evict the club from the Camrose. A lot of the new/younger club supporters will not know who they are. Some of the responsibility must be accounted for.
A slightly more complicated question than it first appears I'm afraid, as "helped or allowed" could include many officials and supporters over a good many years who have trusted too much, been misled, not understood, not listened, not questioned, been frightened of losing their status, just wanted a quiet life, or simply "not got involved in the politics"
If you go by the press release The IMG, formed in January 2017, will go down on record as having made the decision that the club must leave the ground, and also been responsible for the setting up of and transition to the community club
But that's just more smoke and mirrors. The responsibility lies with Rafi Razzak and Malcolm McPhail, ably assisted by David Knight
Of course, I wasn't here for the glory years But, never mind, Nev'll Fix It!
Great response as always David. Lots of Clear and precise information. But please can you name the club officials that helped and allowed Razzak to evict the club from the Camrose. A lot of the new/younger club supporters will not know who they are. Some of the responsibility must be accounted for.
But that's just more smoke and mirrors. The responsibility lies with Rafi Razzak and Malcolm McPhail, ably assisted by David Knight
Incredible one of those names David but shockingly true.
RIP CAMROSE - SADLY AND UNCEREMONIOUSLY TAKEN AWAY FROM THE PEOPLE OF BASINGSTOKE . NEVER TO BE FORGOTTEN
Prejudice is a great TIME SAVER. You can form opinions without having to get to the FACTS.
That is helpful, Dave. You know who I am and of course you helped the disability team as a while at Treasurer. I have read everything on here and it appears that alongside the club, of which I am a member, there is another seemingly highly active and organised grouping of which I was not aware which will also be making submissions. So much the better. It is worth stating that at the AGM, Colin stated that the Community Club have secured the services of a barrister who is being paid for from from donations. It all went wrong when Rafi misunderstood local government and thought that council officials could make decisions about allocations of sites for new grounds. The rest is history. If you asked for my wish to go back in time, it would be as a fly on the wall at a Board meeting where directors agreed to the sale of the ground to Basron. How did it happen? One final note of puzzlement for me. Those who have genuine criticisms of past community club stances and expressions of view and in particular disapproval of people who are still involved in the community club and who don't attend games. Is it not possible they could separate 'team' from 'club' and actually support the team by cheering them on at games?
Unfortunately the group have not been publicised by the club or forum, but have received good coverage in the Gazette and have been organising protests and publicising the Save the Camrose campaign through several group facebook pages we have access to.
We don't necessarily share all the same views regarding the community club, some of us are members, some are not, but we strongly believe the Camrose must be saved, and that keeping the campaign in the public eye has been key to decision making to date.
Over the last five years we have been attending and speaking at various council meetings, and have sent off a long and detailed submission of which we intend to read a summarised statement at the hearing next week.
I would very much doubt that any directors voted on anything regarding the intention to buy the land, (Sarah Parsons is probably the only person who may be able to shed any light on that as she has been a director since 2003 and is the only remaining person still involved), although we must remember that the land deal itself was originally negotiated in 2008, following the setting up of Basron in 2006 as a finance vehicle for the original move to Down Grange (The Sports Hub).
The land would have been sold in good faith at that time to Basron in order to finance the building of the new stadium. When that plan failed, the then directors, myself included, were totally unaware that Mr Razzak was then working on Old Common, a project we learned about two days before it went public in the Gazette, when glossy brochures were produced at a board meeting. We had had no input, no consultation and certainly no vote.
The sale of the land for housing was mentioned at that time when Mr Razzak said in the meeting that there was no plan B and that if this failed he would sell the land for housing. I felt this was a red flag but unfortunately others were seduced by the potential prize and my warnings were dismissed.
From a personal point of view I am never one to say never, and with a longstanding family history at the club would not rule out supporting the team forever, but having been voted out of the club, received constant personal abuse on this forum, seen attempts to assassinate my character by officials of the club, and when my family have been to games they've had chants of "F*ck the Partridges" aimed at them from the supporters, I wouldn't say that it'll be any time soon.
Of course, I wasn't here for the glory years But, never mind, Nev'll Fix It!
That is helpful, Dave. You know who I am and of course you helped the disability team as a while at Treasurer. I have read everything on here and it appears that alongside the club, of which I am a member, there is another seemingly highly active and organised grouping of which I was not aware which will also be making submissions. So much the better. It is worth stating that at the AGM, Colin stated that the Community Club have secured the services of a barrister who is being paid for from from donations. It all went wrong when Rafi misunderstood local government and thought that council officials could make decisions about allocations of sites for new grounds. The rest is history. If you asked for my wish to go back in time, it would be as a fly on the wall at a Board meeting where directors agreed to the sale of the ground to Basron. How did it happen? One final note of puzzlement for me. Those who have genuine criticisms of past community club stances and expressions of view and in particular disapproval of people who are still involved in the community club and who don't attend games. Is it not possible they could separate 'team' from 'club' and actually support the team by cheering them on at games?
The sale of the land for housing was mentioned at that time when Mr Razzak said in the meeting that there was no plan B and that if this failed he would sell the land for housing. I felt this was a red flag but unfortunately others were seduced by the potential prize and my warnings were dismissed.
From a personal point of view I am never one to say never, and with a longstanding family history at the club would not rule out supporting the team forever, but having been voted out of the club, received constant personal abuse on this forum, seen attempts to assassinate my character by officials of the club, and when my family have been to games they've had chants of "F*ck the Partridges" aimed at them from the supporters, I wouldn't say that it'll be any time soon.
Big problem with many of the supporters at that time David when warnings were given out was, they were all so far up Razzak they couldn’t see the wood for the trees, reason being the team on the field were doing so well and in with a chance of promotion they all felt you and the family were causing the problem. Fans were happy, Razzak was dancing on the pitch with his scarf round his neck and all was good………..on the surface that is! but you knew different and no one would believe you! (Apart from me and David Graham on the forum that is). In fact you may remember on the old forum when it was raised about the Old Common move that advertising boards revenue to the level the club had along Winchester Road would be missed because not many at the Old Common would be seen by passing public, particularly motorists, so the need for them would much less. A then director of the club placed a post on the old forum saying ‘we don’t need advertising we have a rich benefactor’ Oh Mr Director and fans who still follows the club where is your rich benefactor now!! The Partridges were right and many of you never listened. Interesting to note at least some of you have had the decency to walk up to David over time and apologise for the misery you gave to his family at that time and that should be applauded. Ok That was all in the past but needed to be said and should never be forgotten.
RIP CAMROSE - SADLY AND UNCEREMONIOUSLY TAKEN AWAY FROM THE PEOPLE OF BASINGSTOKE . NEVER TO BE FORGOTTEN
Prejudice is a great TIME SAVER. You can form opinions without having to get to the FACTS.